Web browsers are not operating systems or application development environments. Theyre document viewers. The effort to make them into something more than that has been one of the biggest wrong turns in the history of computing.
Was that very carefully worded to avoid the Google-owns-the-web shaped elephant in the room? I look forward to seeing what youre building!
COULD NOT AGREE MORE!!!
Things evolve over time. What`s the point of keeping web browsers as dumb document viewers if they could be so much more helpful? Even REST has a code on demand principle which supports this.
This would be correct when the web was first available before additions, it became incorrect as soon as the web added things like post requests, cookies, JavaScript and more. Its not a modern movement to make websites applications.
Huh? That changed in .. what .. 1999? A bit late, are you?
Ehhh, I don`t think I agree. I`m *very* critical of the app model of web development, but only because it`s too often the default. But for situations where it makes sense, it`s a good fit.
The most popular apps for knowledge work (google docs), design (figma), and development (vscode) are all built & delivered with browser technologies. I wouldn`t bet against the browser.
No. This is the notion of a document that has evolved. Progress is cool
This issue is that web browsers havent evolved to other than JUST the DOM. Instead everything is placed as components of that. Smarter people than I should have offered alternative model/constructs that can be baseline you choose on start.
In the early days I used to argue against serving apps via the web browser, document wasnt a first principle concept. But I had to give up, of course. WebAssembly emerged to sort of rekindle those early feelings.
I sincerely believe that corporate red tape is the main reason for the push to web apps. Installing stuff and opening ports requires paperwork and dealing with belligerent IT security folks, so instead we shove everything down port 443 and have the user redownload over and over.
Can we be happy we didn`t end up with Xanadu? Apologies to Ted Nelson, but I`ve always loved the home grown origins of the Web. Sure, some apps dont cut it, but the Web lets 1000 flowers bloom.
1) no remote positions. 2) based in San Francisco? Your employees cant even afford to live in that city. 3) No remote positions 4) The UI of your website is non intuitive. 5) it is completely unclear what you are doing.
Its almost like platforms can evolve to suit the needs of its users. Or do you believe all computers should still operate on DOS?
I checked the website and its still very fuzzy and intriguing what is your company offering.
They are still document viewers. Viewers with them you can analyze what`s happend with your document. Viewers that can "optimize" to view this documents. Viewers, that you can "optimize" to your personal needs.
Evolution is a fundamental of computing history and one that should be embraced. Browsers are evolving and through their evolution we will achieve way more than ignoring that knowledge.
So you never... - Paid a bill on a web browser - Accessed your bank account using a web browser - Watched videos on a browser You cannot support this preposterous and backwards idea if you have ever used a browser to "browse documents".
Web browsers are like shells which execute an app. Web assembly is only making it even more powerful. But I agree, we are using something which originally never intended to be like this.
Intensely regulated walled garden app stores leave very few options
Have you seen your own website ah the irony
Maybe go fix your own website first. It breaks web standards. Doesnt support back button behavior, has many accessibility issues; and is just plain terrible at content strategy.
Web browsers might not be but not with Web technology. The UX of FirefoxOS, WebOS, and ChromeOS are built on top of Web technology.
If you want to rank desktop technologies: AppKit > Web Apps > Sandboxed Mac Apps The problem is AppKit just isn`t moving fast enough to keep up with web apps anymore (e.g., best-in-class "multiplayer" document editing needs to be a for-free feature in AppKit yesterday).
It`s worth asking why web apps have been so successful on the desktop this last decade, when native apps were eating their lunch before that. I`d argue the Apple`s focus on the mobile security model, and UIKit over AppKit, on the desktop are responsible for this decline.
Hey, check out and maybe you will change your mind
i wish there was a way to engage in this kind of thing in some way other than working there
Perhaps they were once, but now they`re not, and they haven`t been for a long long time. They were inevitable. They are not computers, or environments, or viewers. They`re the internet platform and just as with the internet, they`re flexible enough to dismiss dogma.
Yet your website tells a different story...
Ken, is another way of saying this is that the web browser should be more about data than behavior? I reached that same conclusion in 2005 and even shipped a universal canvas app with web DNA for macOS. Same daily struggle for me but I`m still a believer. Those limitations have grown less and less onerous over the last decade, and I have every reason to believe it`ll only get better.
Isn`t it completely the opposite? I wish this trend started before.
And all computers are only business calculating machines. Okay maybe you could use one as a loom or to decrypt NAZI code. The sarcasm is rude but seriously?
With 30% App Store fees, Id take a second look at this take.
That ship has sailed 20 years ago.
6 scripts downloaded in your read-only document. youre just mad cause youre a little too old to be a digital native
Computers are here to crunch numbers. Not to display funny graphics. The effort to make them into something more was a mistake.
what a bad take. HTTP POST existed in 1996. The web was never intended as a read-only document viewer, Ken.
But is so good.
Connect the dots between the rise of TCP/IP networks as a means for the system to survive nuclear annihilation, and the current state where corps built atop TCP/IP purposefully annihilate critical nodes in the psyche of it`s users "for the gram". ie clout / money / power etc.
Web browsers are more than just document browsers. Theyre now one of the worlds most frequently used communications interfaces
And computers are automated calculators and mobile phones are just phones Things evolve. The web is the most advanced, quick, open and safe application delivery platform there is.
So you want the WWW of 2021 to be a collection of static web pages?
Huh? Figma and Arcade are two amazing examples...
Is your website a document or an app? Why have you hijacked the browsers native scroll? Why doesnt it work in Firefox?
Curious, what do you think about ?
100% Wrong. Web browsers are the Operating system abstraction layer.
Would legitimately love to hear you expanded thoughts on this. Incidentally, I can`t use my browser`s back button on the website
We can try again: Well it looks like chrome os is a mistake
There is no alternative, to what the browser is today. Not even close. To criticize something unique, requires you to suggest better alternatives.
Big claims require an equally big thesis preferably backed by data and facts. A single tweet can hardly be even considered a point.
Totally agree. Most web apps sucks providing a very bad user experience. Im a big advocate of native apps. Its just a trend to save money and its totally wrong. Love when people say the truth.
This ^^^^^ should be framed and on every wall in every dev company. It should also be printed on T-shirts. And coasters, and mugs.
Do you mean literal development environments or application clients? Certainly I always preferred the browser as a window to a remote application/content but client side work certainly helped improve the user experience a decade or so again - less click and wait
I might agree, but I`m not convinced that WebAssembly isn`t super cool yet.
They are the web version of the XTerminal station.
I can`t find any info one what you actually do.
Totally wrong. Actually 15 years ago this would be valid opinion but today ? Common
I think about this a lot, it strikes me that a lot of the web/browser engine powered software we`re fed today is in reality no better, and in some cases worse, than what we had in the 90s and 00s while being hugely less resource efficient and reliable.
Browsers are an on-demand operating system, where anyone can run an app, on almost any device, by clicking a link. I think thats to be celebrated.
Perhaps were wired to seek content - that would explain the primacy of document viewers. Theres an App for that feels less compelling
I see a gazillion node modules disagreeing
Working on a mobile OS, big disclaimer.
The Web is a fantastic environment, both for users and developers. With initiatives like PWA, Wasm, WebGPU, WebHID, etc the browsers could outgrow their original purpose as `document viewers`. I definitely would love (and hope) to see this happen!
Unfortunately web browsers are now essentially performing the role of operating systems but I agree that being based on document tech doesnt afford the best experience we can get out of the hardware as they are just another layer of abstraction. IMO in balance a worthy trade off
Where is the line between app and doc? Your site supports job applications. I dont think docs can do that? Web apps are fantastic tools. Collaborating over Google docs. Connecting with people in community facilitators like Reddit and Discord. So many more. Should be native?
I thought the same this week. 30 years after the invention of the web, my kids teachers are struggling to find a good way to publish school work for remote learning. Such a shame.
There were ppl against GUI and mostly right for the time. Command line is still way better for some things but for most things and most people GUI is better. The bad experience you associate with web is mostly temporary limitations (and some bad intent design patterns).
Or, the wrong turn was thinking that documents were the right paradigm for the web. What people actually needed it to be was an internet operating system.
Thats what i always say about web. Browsers should provide sandboxed vm environments and let people run their apps like the mobile world instead of forcing us to use a document viewing protocol along with the cancer called javascript
Although I agree with you idealistically, browsers offer an easy single point of access to the WWW, and also provides a sandbox for apps to be run safely. For me the problem is insisting on using html+JavaScript to create apps, instead of evolving into better approaches...
Disagree. But what would have been the Alternative for Cross-Platform App Dev? Java? Please name an alternative to the open web. Really curious
Web browsers are just the portals to the open web. It is open for all, and whatever you want to create. The web offers knowledge, games, VR experiences, machine learning, finances, apps, and all the things yet to be created. Of course there are rough edges, but I prefer freedom.
The information on your website what you actually want to develop is a bit thin.
I agree, that`s why I think Flutter is an awesome platform for app development. Did you have a closer look at it?
For me, its the absolute opposite. It allows to built modern, fast, accessible, beautiful and well-working applications, while other native environments are often outdated, horrible to build and you have to build it completely new for every platform.
I agree but disagree. While it was intended for that I think it is really cool how far people have managed to push the boundaries of web browsers. Except chrome. Fuck chrome and it`s ram eating. LMAO.
First glimpse of whats brewing behind :)
What do you think about web assembly?
Are the positions remote?
Theres a huge problem with App Stores being the only way to publish apps though, so there does need to be alternatives. I agree that the web has evolved in strange ways. We need open application environments of some sort.
Dude, amazing connective tech has been built on the back of everything that youre against. Think again
Does web browsers = document browsers mean that for any other web function we`d use specialized clients... on new protocols? ... and radically many of them unlike the original application level troika HTTP/Email/FTP...?
I get what youre saying, but theyre not mere document viewers. In fact, the whole idea of hypertext was the break the chains of documents. Browsers started as portals to hypertext content. Theyre not operating systems now, but they are much more than they were.
Isn`t a browser kind of the exact opposite of what you`re saying? That`s why JQuery can make your laptop`s fan go brrrr
I like that avg people can use browsers as creatively as they dare, minimal outlay and a world of people to interact with. A diverse www beyond the clutches of software engineering somehow does not seem like a wrong turn. Coping with cross-browser incompatibility is a simple joy.
This is probably the first hint I see about what humane is doing
Wrong. They have done what Java promised and failed to deliver - a device agnostic technology platform. This has enabled people like me - with no resources - to build complex software that competes with corporations
Damn disappointed after the original tweet. I thought the website was just going to just be html.
Native apps are underrated
Oh it`s all far from perfect, but I just look at the transformative effect of software delivered through browsers. It`s also allowed new platforms (like the iPhone) to bootstrap and minority platforms (like Linux & macOS) to be viable. And after we should get !
What if thats what consumers want. Hard to call it a wrong turn in that case
If you need an RN now Im available, otherwise will see say hi when I finish my engineering bootcamp haha.
Wed all be using Microsoft Sharepoint today if Benioff hadnt disrupted that nonsense.
I would say its kind of a moot point? Its being used like an OS, so it is. If you want something different, fine, but you have to make something compelling enough to overcome all the benefits of using the browser as a universal client and platform.
I didnt realize youd joined! What a team!
The opposite. It has allowed startups to disrupt awful software distributed as binaries that had to be approved by IT and CIOs.
Im curious what specific outcomes or choices you mean by wrong turns, can you share more? To mean admittedly biased human working on a browserthis reads like electricity cant do math!: technically correct, but a limiting worldview.
Maybe not the browsers itself but the core engine that powers them can be extended to OS or appdev envs. Chromium or ChromeOS, for that matter looks promising.
This is not a good take. It`s up there with there being a market for maybe five computers in the world. Computers and the web have evolved beyond their original conception to be far more powerful and interesting and useful.
A technology is what it`s used for. The defining factor of web browsers is their ability to get code running, with minimal friction, on as many platforms as possible. Everything else that ""should be"" an application platform has failed to achieve that.
If you agree, maybe youd be in interested in coming to work with us at Were rethinking how technology can serve people better. Come join us! Ok - another one, one thing that I loved about Newton was the data centric approach rather than sandboxed app approach. Thoughts on that?
Now theyre just insufferable memory hogs. 32GB of RAM is necessary just to have AutoCAD and Chrome open!
Wonder how much effort google and Apple still put in chrome and safari respectively given they havent changed a lot in recent years.
Its never too late, theres always room of another revolution. What would a modern extensible open source runtime environment look like? Java2021 so to speak. I guess swift playgrounds is a close start
The web remains the only truly open platform for computing. It has allowed for freedom and progress impossible had it been started elsewhere
Just like everything on the table didnt change much from 19th century except for a , similarly web browsers accelerated while OSs and hardware didnt change much.
I see a coming further browser web content/app split. Web Browsers have been used for Application delivery for many years (eg FaceBook), but the DOM isnt very good at that. But users still want ephemeral, available-everywhere apps it seems. hottake
Why is that a wrong turn?
Strong take! Tell us how you feel about electron apps.
the web makes me miss magazines; Id love to see what a static web of knowledge designed by people with desktop publishing & print experience looks like. A web without scripting
I am looking forward to some elaboration here but let me say I agree
Ooh, theres a topic.
